Will My Baby Ever Sleep Through the Night? with Andrea of Baby Sleep Answers | Episode 27
Join YBYB: www.thelabormama.com/birth & use the code PODCAST to save 20%
In this refreshing, judgment-free conversation, I sit down with Andrea de la Torre, a sleep consultant of 8+ years, mom of 3, author, and the calm voice behind Baby Sleep Answers.
She ditches the “one right way” for baby sleep and dives into what actually helps babies (and exhausted parents) sleep better.
What’s inside this episode:
- Every baby is different →Temperament, birth order, reflux, gut health, and even prenatal experiences all shape how a child sleeps. What worked for baby #1 might flop with baby #2.
- Sleep science + knowing your baby = magic combo:Understand wake windows (as flexible guidelines, not rigid rules), circadian rhythm, and adenosine buildup - then tweak everything to fit YOUR child’s personality and sleep needs.
- High vs. low sleep needs is real:Some babies genuinely need 14–15 hours total; others thrive on 10–11.
- Well-rested (not over-napped) begets better nights:Sometimes you HAVE to wake a sleeping baby to protect nighttime sleep.
- Overtired ≠ just “really tired”:Pushing past a baby’s wake window triggers cortisol and adrenaline, making sleep harder. Some babies are super sensitive to this; others roll with it.
- Don’t keep baby awake to “tire them out”:Stimulation is great (outdoor time, talking, baby massage), but exceeding wake windows backfires.
- Take what works, leave the rest:No one method works for every baby.
- Sleep affects the whole family:Partners who split nights (or at least talk specifics before baby arrives) see faster progress - and less resentment.
Helpful Timestamps:
- 01:23 Diving into Baby Sleep Challenges
- 07:21 Understanding Baby Temperaments and Sleep
- 15:43 Navigating Social Media and Sleep Advice
- 25:57 Understanding Your Child's Temperament and Sleep
- 29:27 Waking a Sleeping Baby: When and Why
- 32:46 Balancing Activity and Rest for Better Sleep
- 41:00 The Role of Parental Communication in Baby's Sleep
- 47:27 Resources and Final Thoughts
More from Andrea de la Torre:
- Visitbabysleepanswers.com
- Baby Sleep Courses
- Instagram:@babysleep.answers
About your host:
🩺🤰🏻Lo Mansfield, MSN, RNC-OB, CLC is a registered nurse, mama of 4, and a birth, baby, and motherhood enthusiast. She is both the host of the Lo & Behold podcast and the founder of The Labor Mama.
For more education, support and “me too” from Lo, please visit her website and check out her online courses and digital guides for birth, breastfeeding, and postpartum/newborns. You can also follow @thelabormama and @loandbehold_thepodcast on Instagram and join her email list here.
For more pregnancy, birth, postpartum and motherhood conversation each week, be sure to subscribe to The Lo & Behold podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you prefer to listen!
👉🏼 A request: If this episode meant something to you, would you consider a 5 star rating and leaving us a review? Yes, we read them, and yes, they help keep L & B going! ♥️
Connect with Lo more on: INSTAGRAM | TIK TOK | PINTEREST | FACEBOOK
Disclaimer
Opinions shared by guests of this show are their own, and do not always reflect those of The Labor Mama platform. Additionally, the information you hear on this podcast or that you receive via any linked resources should not be considered medical advice. Please see our full disclaimer here.
Additionally, we may make a small commission from some of the links shared with you. Please know, this comes at no additional cost to you, supports our small biz, and is a way for us to share brands and products with you that we genuinely love.
Produced and Edited by Vaden Podcast Services
Transcript
Motherhood is all consuming.
Speaker:Having babies, nursing, feeling the fear of loving someone that much, and there's this baby on your chest, and boom, your entire life has changed.
:It's a privilege of being your child's safest space and watching your heart walk around outside of your body.
:The truth is.
:I can be having the best time being a mom one minute, and then the next, I'm questioning all my life choices.
Speaker:I'm Lo Mansfield, your host of the Lo and Behold podcast, mama of four Littles, former labor and postpartum RN, CLC, and your new best friend in the messy middle space of all the choices you are making in pregnancy, birth, and motherhood.
Speaker:If there is one thing I know after years of delivering babies at the bedside and then having, and now raising those four of my own, it is that there is no such thing as a best way to do any of this.
Speaker:And we're leaning into that truth here with the mix of real life and what the textbook says, expert Insights and practical applications.
Speaker:Each week we're making our way towards stories that we participate in, stories that we are honest about, and stories that are ours.
Speaker:This is the lo and behold podcast.
Lo:Alright, you guys, in today's episode, we are going to talk about baby sleep.
Lo:Which is something that surprised me so much when I became a parent.
Lo:Not because it was hard to navigate, because yes, I think that it is, but because it was so divisive and certainly social media and the growth of platforms where we can all share what we're doing as parents probably has added to that, but I just.
Lo:Did not realize that there were going to be such specific lines in the sand about how your baby sleeps and what you think about sleep and how you help them to sleep or how you don't support them to sleep.
Lo:I just did not realize that there would be such a kind of view versus us mentality in a lot of the baby sleep spaces.
Lo:Not all of them, but a lot of them.
Lo:And as I've shared over the years about our own family and things that have worked and haven't, and figuring out who of my kids are and what sleep looks like for us and inside of my, beyond the birth course, my postpartum newborn course.
Lo:You know, I share about sleep and foundational things that I believe about sleep and that have helped me.
Lo:But in all of that, I'm always caveating it.
Lo:Like, Hey, not a baby sleep expert.
Lo:So if that is what you want, you can definitely go find that from a lot of other people, but not here.
Lo:I love my birth and postpartum world, but I'll leave sleep to the experts and leave that spiciness to the experts as well.
Lo:My guest today, Andrea, is one of the people that I would say is an expert, and I love the way that she approaches baby sleep.
Lo:So I asked her to come on.
Lo:She has been educating in this.
Lo:Base for like eight to nine years.
Lo:Sporting families, one-on-one consults courses.
Lo:She's an author, she's a teacher.
Lo:She's a mom of three, so she's been having babies in this season as well.
Lo:I just love the way she approaches all of this.
Lo:I feel like she's.
Lo:Even keeled, levelheaded kind, generous with her words.
Lo:She's funny.
Lo:And I just like the way that I've always felt like when I have left her Instagram space or left, you know, podcasts or things that I've listened to that have her on them, I've always felt like.
Lo:There was no judgment that there was a, Hey, here are some things I know and I wanna support you, and I wanna help you, and you can go use them the way that is best for your family.
Lo:So that is what this conversation should feel like for you today, and I hope you do find some things you can grab and then take them forward and use them for you and for your baby.
Lo:Andrea, thank you so much for being with me here today.
Lo:Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit and then we'll just get into our conversation.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:Hi.
Andrea:So good to be here.
Andrea:I'm Andrea and I am a mom of three and I've been a sleep consultant for as long as my first, how old he is.
Andrea:He's eight and a half, which is just crazy.
Andrea:And yeah, and I started sleep consultant basically because my baby was not sleeping.
Andrea:And I had just stopped working and I was like, well, I'm not gonna pay someone else to fix this if I could just easily, you know, take a whole course and get certified and to fix it myself.
Andrea:And then I just started helping people because I had certification and then people started being like, wow, like this is really changing my life.
Andrea:I was like, oh, I guess it could be more than a hobby.
Andrea:And then I just started a whole business with it.
Andrea:And so I've just been helping moms with sleep for, yeah, for my first born's age.
Lo:Yeah, it feel so similar to a lot of the people I feel like who get into the birth world and they're like, I had a baby.
Lo:And then it made me realize I wanna be a doula or I wanna be a nurse, or whatever.
Lo:But I do think like so many of these parenting things we go through and then we realize.
Lo:There wasn't the help I wanted, or there was something I needed and I couldn't find it, and I love this, so I'm just gonna go do it myself.
Lo:So that like my foray into all of this was so similar where it was kind of like, maybe I'll start talking about this online because I like it, or I've learned all of this stuff and I wasn't nurse, so I guess I like.
Lo:Had the education before, but, and then it was like you said, and then people were listening and like wanted the help, right.
Lo:And so I thought, oh, I can keep doing this here online too.
Lo:So it wasn't sounds like for you as well, not this, here's my business plan and this is what I'm gonna do, but more, oh, people are gonna listen to me.
Lo:This is great.
Lo:Yeah, I'd love to keep helping.
Lo:So
Andrea:yeah, no, there was just like, I was like, okay, well I guess you know, people want help.
Andrea:I started on Instagram and then it just kind of blew up and then it was like the whole community.
Andrea:It's insane.
Andrea:I mean, I'm not a huge social media person because I, I just, I don't love it.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:I hate what it does to me mentally, and it's so hard to be on your phone all the time and feeling that pressure to post and like you post something and no one sees it.
Andrea:But it is, it is, you know, you find so many people.
Andrea:I, I made so many friends throughout because I help them with their sleep and then they just are awesome people.
Andrea:Like people and like, do I, you know, everywhere.
Lo:That's my favorite part about all of it too.
Lo:Sometimes people will recognize me here in Colorado and come up to me and they're like, I'm so sorry.
Lo:I just like wanted to say, Hey, and here's how you helped, or whatever.
Lo:And every time I'm like, thank you for saying hi, because I like, it reminds me there are real people out there.
Lo:And sometimes you think, oh, only 12 people saw.
Lo:Real or whatever, but like imagine 12 people standing in front of you saying, you literally changed my family's life or whatever.
Lo:Like that happens and it's really, really cool, I think to remember that and have it kind of be brought back down to that small scale sometimes of, I guess not all about these viral numbers, but it's about the real people in Dubai or wherever.
Lo:Like you said, that you really are helping.
Lo:Because you've been in sleep and you've been exhausted.
Lo:I know you have.
Lo:It's not like you've had perfectly sleeping babies.
Lo:Like you know what it means to have someone support you in these different seasons, so
Andrea:Oh, yeah.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:I was joke around my first, oh, sorry.
Andrea:Go ahead.
Lo:No, please go ahead.
Lo:I was,
Andrea:I was joking around that my first, second and third, I have three kids.
Andrea:So each of them had such different sleep issues and you know, I didn't sleep basically for each of their babyhood because every single one of them had different issues.
Andrea:But they were so extreme that it gave me such a huge repertoire.
Andrea:Like I didn't know the term, you know, low sleep needs, which I love to talk about now, or I didn't know that reflux mm-hmm.
Andrea:Could make you congested and not allow you to sleep well.
Andrea:And then with my daughter, I found so much about the gut health.
Andrea:And now it's like a huge part of my whole life, so, mm-hmm.
Andrea:I've been able to help people with such different sleep things that you can't just Google, like how much sleep does an eight month old need.
Andrea:It's like you need to figure out each baby individually.
Lo:That's, it's funny that you're saying that 'cause that's exactly where I was gonna go is I know you have three kids and I have four and our first three, it's kind of fun.
Lo:They're like all the same ages.
Lo:So we kinda connected on social media when we were both pregnant with that third baby and kind of getting into more what we're doing here.
Lo:But yeah, that idea of babies being really different, I actually thought we could talk about a little more.
Lo:Kind of how do you set up your parents for that?
Lo:That idea of, hey, there isn't this one size fits all, which I think we can all see now with this, you know, divisiveness online about sleep, right?
Lo:That clearly there's a lot of ways we can go.
Lo:But you, you can look back now after three kids and you have this wisdom because you've raised and are getting three babies to sleep over the last eight or nine years.
Lo:But what about that first time parent who's like, okay, it sounds like some of this is, you learn by.
Lo:I don't wanna say like trial by fire, but you learn as you go.
Lo:So how do we encourage these first time parents?
Lo:But here are some things that you can carry into this as you get ready.
Lo:And then yes, you're gonna get wisdom along the way as well.
Lo:But here's how I like to, like for you, here's how I like to kind of set up my new parents as they're approaching.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:This sleep topic.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:So it's a huge deal, especially because.
Andrea:It is just so hard.
Andrea:It's so disheartening when you're like talking to someone and they say, yeah, my two week old is sleeping all night.
Andrea:And you're like, mine's not.
Andrea:What's wrong with me?
Andrea:What's wrong with my baby?
Andrea:And it can be really, I mean, I remember talking with my cousin, she had a kid like maybe a month before I did, and she was like, yeah, you know, he, she sleeps three naps a day and then 12 nights and hours a night.
Andrea:And my kid was definitely not doing that.
Andrea:And I was like, wow.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:What the heck are you doing right, that I'm doing wrong?
Andrea:And you know, Uhhuh actually talking more.
Andrea:She was like, I don't do anything.
Andrea:I just put her in her crib and she falls asleep.
Andrea:And I was like, what the heck?
Andrea:Yeah, that's what the book says.
Andrea:And mine's not working.
Andrea:So what I like to do with parents is really get to know them and just honestly, like ask them as much as I can about their babies.
Andrea:If we work, if we're working one-on-one.
Andrea:My course is a little bit less, obviously, like one-on-one, but it got, it has a little bit of the same.
Andrea:But yeah, asking you to really get to know your child, what did they like?
Andrea:Do they like noise?
Andrea:Do they not like noise?
Andrea:Are they affected by, you know, brightness?
Andrea:Very much Are they not?
Andrea:And just really just get to know your baby.
Andrea:But also learn the physiology of sleep.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And also know that babies can only be awake for a certain amount of time before they get overtired, which means they're releasing cortisol, which means sleep is gonna be harder.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:So I do believe strongly in understanding sleep science.
Andrea:And I wasn't so intense about that with my first 'cause it didn't matter as much, but as I learned more, my second child is so sensitive and he is so sensitive in all the ways now that he's six.
Andrea:He's like one of the most sensitive people I've ever met in my whole life, to be honest.
Andrea:Which has been, it has been fun emotionally.
Andrea:But it made me really realize that like sleep science matters a lot to some babies.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And some babies just don't care.
Andrea:I have a friend who's newborn with sleeping.
Andrea:14 hour nights and four hour naps.
Andrea:And that baby just need a lot of sleep.
Andrea:Needs a lot of sleep.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And so it doesn't matter that much what you provide, 'cause they just, they're just gonna sleep.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And then there's others, babies who don't.
Andrea:So yeah, just understanding the basic things.
Andrea:And I love to teach that you know, about circadian rhythms and about the Aden buildup, which is the wake window.
Andrea:And I know a lot of people are awake window haters.
Andrea:'cause they're like, well, there's no way all four month olds need to be awake for two hours.
Andrea:But the way to wake use wake windows is what matters.
Andrea:You have to know, okay.
Andrea:Most four month olds.
Andrea:Can only be awake for two hours.
Andrea:So for my four month old, if I'm trying to figure him out, I'm gonna keep him awake for two hours at the one, or I'm gonna keep him awake for an hour 50 at the hour, 50 mark.
Andrea:I'm gonna try to get him to sleep and see what happens.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:If they respond well and like fall asleep and stay asleep for longer than 30 minutes.
Andrea:Awesome.
Andrea:I found his morning wake window.
Andrea:So it is a lot of trial by FA fire, but there is a lot of, you know, a blueprint that you can kind of follow and then just know that it's not gonna be a given, but it's gonna be
Lo:mm-hmm.
Andrea:Something you can kind of try.
Andrea:It's kinda like when you're feeding a child and you're like, well, I know they have to have protein, fat, and fiber, but if you give all kids like prunes, maybe no one's gonna eat them, right?
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And so you have to find a different fiber or different vitamins that will work.
Andrea:Your child, or maybe that wasn't a great analogy, but that's where my brain,
Lo:it works.
Lo:I get it.
Lo:I'm tracking.
Lo:I actually, there's.
Lo:Six different things that you, in that three minutes we were just talking or whatever, that I could zoom in on.
Lo:But, I wanna come back to wake windows.
Lo:But one thing that I do think that I've heard a little bit more is this idea of temperament.
Lo:Mm-hmm.
Lo:And, and you kind of spoke to this right, of like getting to know your baby because I don't, I think that there is sometimes this idea and maybe even just generationally.
Lo:In parenting in general, that like you do things one way for your kids and you get the one outcome and like, like I was raised that way in a home where my right parents kind of was like, this is how we discipline and this is how we do this and this is the expectation.
Lo:But I do, kind of subscribe to this idea that like each of our kids are different, so we kind of have to figure out like.
Lo:What works best with them for sleep?
Lo:What works best with them for discipline?
Lo:What do they respond to when they're anxious?
Lo:You know, that they're, that these things are different.
Lo:And I, I personally feel like that trickles into sleep even with babies.
Lo:Right?
Lo:And so that the temperament thing makes sense that it does, it is so valuable to, to kind of dig into or try to figure out what their temperament is, because that will change how they respond to, let's call them like sleep.
Lo:Interventions or, or things that you're kind of trying to do with them?
Lo:Oh yeah.
Lo:So what would you say for those parents if they're like, all right, how do I kind of figure out my kiddo's temperament so that I can then kind of apply that to this sleep science that I've learned?
Lo:Right.
Lo:Or that I'm learning?
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:So unfortunately, it's like, well, all relationships, it's just time and effort and you know, lots of bonding, lots of time together, lots of trying different things.
Andrea:For example, my first baby, he always, we would put him in his crib once at night and he would just fall asleep.
Andrea:And he didn't like to be held for sleep and he didn't like to be snuggled for sleep.
Andrea:And even now he's not a very snugly kid.
Andrea:I get like one bedtime hug and he's like, all right, it's time for our bedtime hug.
Andrea:And he loves it, but he's just not a touchy-feely person, which makes sense because I'm not a touchy-feely person.
Andrea:But my second kid, he just wanted to be held all the time.
Andrea:And I was like, what is wrong with you?
Andrea:And maybe it was because he had reflux as well, but even now, I mean, he's the snuggies little 6-year-old boy and he loves snuggles and loves cuddles and.
Andrea:Like kisses and all of that, which is like, I actually love it because it's him, but nobody else.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:In my life, because I'm not a touchy-feely person.
Andrea:But that definitely translated into all their sleep needs.
Andrea:And I see that with parents a lot.
Andrea:So I'll ask them like, do they like being held?
Andrea:Do they like being cuddled?
Andrea:And sometimes they're like, wait, no, they don't.
Andrea:And I've been trying to rock 'em to sleep and they don't.
Andrea:And so for a lot of those kids be like, Hey, well just try this.
Andrea:Just put 'em in their crib.
Andrea:When you know they're tired, you figure out the wake window.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And then walk away and see what happens.
Andrea:And they're like, what if they cry?
Andrea:It's like, well just try it.
Andrea:Obviously if they go into like hysterics and they're not comfortable, go back in and like see what you can do.
Andrea:But if you put 'em in and they go like, and then they fall asleep, likely they were crying because they were trying to sleep.
Andrea:And sometimes, mm-hmm.
Andrea:Sleepy babies cry because they're so tired.
Andrea:And if you're not providing the wave that they wanna sleep by themselves, perhaps.
Andrea:Then they're just not going to sleep.
Andrea:So I've had a few clients that just like, just just put 'em in there and see what happens.
Andrea:And they're like, Andrea, you like your magic.
Andrea:And it's like, no, no, we're just getting to know your baby.
Andrea:They didn't wanna be held to sleep.
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:But honestly, if I hadn't had my first, I don't know if I would've ever come up with that, you know?
Andrea:And so there is so much, you know, like when I go to a nutritionist, there's just so much they know because they've spent their whole life looking at different cases.
Andrea:So it is, it is tricky to be like.
Andrea:I, I guess what I wanna say is don't feel bad if you can't figure out your baby's temperament.
Andrea:I'm not saying you have to hire someone to help you do that, but if you're having a hard time, it's okay to reach out.
Andrea:It's okay to talk to other moms who've had kids, other parents who have kids.
Andrea:I don't wanna other dads too.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:I don't, I I agree with you that like the older generations didn't do this as much.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:So often when we go to our moms, they're like, just let 'em cry.
Andrea:Or they're like, just hold them the whole time.
Andrea:You just need to hold them.
Andrea:It was interesting.
Andrea:I was talking to my grandma, right?
Andrea:And my grandpa was a pediatrician and so he told her what to do for everything, but he told her that you should not hold a baby unless they, you're nursing them.
Andrea:And so that's what she prescribed to, and that's what she told me to do.
Andrea:Never hold a baby unless you're feeding them.
Andrea:Whether they're gonna be spoiled.
Andrea:Right, right.
Andrea:So there is that hard thing.
Andrea:You can't always go to your mom or grandma, but you can find friends you can't find, and that's what social media has given us.
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:Just another idea, another way of doing.
Lo:Right.
Lo:I feel like it's both the blessing and the curse of social media though, because Oh, a hundred percent it can, it's like the value of.
Lo:Finding resources that help you realize, oh, like there are other ways to do this, or, oh, there's like high sleep needs and low sleep needs to bring back that term you brought up earlier, like a lot of this I think parents are discovering via social media counts.
Lo:The reverse of that or the flip of that is you can feel like.
Lo:There is one specific way that is the right way to do sleep and the other one is not okay.
Lo:Or it kind of puts you in a bad place, like in a bad space or you're doing something that can harm your and child.
Lo:And so you end up with this like, but my kid is like this and this works and this works, but this doesn't.
Lo:So really like, I just feel like so much of this is kind of like finding the right puzzle pieces for your baby.
Lo:'cause I don't know that like universally.
Lo:Any of the systems work for every baby?
Lo:No, I, well, I don't think they do.
Lo:I think you would say they don't either.
Lo:No, because I'm like you.
Lo:My first was actually very similar to your first and we realized very quickly she does not want us to be holding her all night.
Lo:Or when she woke up at night, she needed like maybe a, Hey, I am right here.
Lo:And then we needed to leave her alone.
Lo:She did not do well if we tried to like cuddle her and rock her back.
Lo:It was the weird to me, I thought, this is the weirdest thing.
Lo:You don't, I'm not helping you if I come in here.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:And then my second was the opposite and very much like yours, she is still so cuddly.
Lo:She finds me every morning and says, Hey, you haven't given me my morning hug yet.
Lo:Like, she's been like that since the day she was born.
Lo:And so there was, I think that slow, that wisdom that does come with having a baby and then a maybe another, and another where you can start to realize they are really different, which means the systems that may or may not work with one baby.
Lo:Can be different with that second baby.
Lo:And sometimes I, just to go back to that initial thought of, I just don't know that social media sometimes it can make you feel like you have to pick a lane and stick in that lane, and I just don't think our babies actually allow for that when it comes to sleep because they're not the same.
Lo:So
Andrea:no, there, there's just so many different things that can be, like, for example, for my second, I had to put him in there like 10, 15 minutes before his nap so he could calm down.
Andrea:Soothe himself and then fall asleep.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And I don't mean soothe himself from crying, just like,
Lo:yeah.
Andrea:Think.
Andrea:And he's a thinker now.
Andrea:I see that it's really cool to see your babies as like kids and you're like, oh, that's what you were doing.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:Whereas my youngest, she doesn't like to be alone.
Andrea:She loves people.
Andrea:She loves, she's the most social kid I have.
Andrea:Like, it's exhausting because I'm not that social.
Andrea:But she did not wanna be put down for nap if it was more than five minutes before her wake window.
Andrea:And if I did that, she would just lose it.
Andrea:And it's funny because if I didn't know about wake windows, I would've thought, oh, like she's overtired.
Andrea:I don't know.
Andrea:But then I realized it was her temperament.
Andrea:She didn't wanna be in the crib unless she was exhausted and tired enough to sleep.
Andrea:And even now she's like that.
Andrea:She doesn't like to go to bed unless she's like about to fall asleep.
Andrea:And again, that's personality.
Andrea:And I think it's also like a lot of birth order.
Andrea:I don't know if you know much about birth order or care, much about birth order.
Andrea:Some people ascribe to it, some people don't.
Andrea:But those personalities do come in, you know, with the first you're a little more anxious, a little more stressed, so those things might come up like prenatally as well.
Andrea:And the third is usually like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be with you guys 'cause I'm gonna be, yeah, the one who says that I'm not left out.
Andrea:And I think a lot of that fits into it as well.
Andrea:But I agree with you about social media and it can be really, really hard.
Andrea:What I tell people a lot is like, if you see something and it makes you feel bad about yourself, stop following that person.
Andrea:Even if it's me, if I say something and it doesn't work for you.
Andrea:Yeah, I feel weird.
Andrea:Just don't, just don't just block them.
Andrea:You don't have to receive so much input.
Andrea:And then if someone else like mm-hmm.
Andrea:Already kind of they're saying, you do you and here's some science, like, and that works for you, then only follow that person.
Andrea:Don't keep looking for more.
Andrea:But there is a thing like maybe different people have different things that might help you.
Andrea:So if you're in a good ed space and you are looking for a specific answer, but, I don't know.
Andrea:I just get so many people that come to me, they're like, I'm so stressed out.
Andrea:'cause this other person said I can't.
Andrea:Hold them for the nap and I don't wanna ruin them.
Andrea:Am I ruining them?
Andrea:And I'm like, no, I, I'll ask them something like, is holding them for a nap?
Andrea:Working for you?
Andrea:Is, does that work for your family?
Andrea:Is that working for your schedule?
Andrea:Is that where you would like to be?
Andrea:And they're like, yeah.
Andrea:So like, well then keep holding them.
Lo:Right.
Lo:You know,
Andrea:there's nothing you can't change when it stops working.
Lo:Yep.
Lo:Yep.
Lo:I was doing a podcast episode a while ago about some early breastfeeding stuff, with an IBLC named Amber, and Amber and I were talking about this.
Lo:'cause it pertains to breastfeeding advice too because again, there's advice everywhere and it's also often contradicting and then all of a sudden you're thinking, wait, am I hurting my supply or what?
Lo:You know, like mm-hmm.
Lo:It's the same thing.
Lo:And she was just saying, when I have these moms come in, feeling that way or.
Lo:Or or going through that.
Lo:Basically I'm saying take what you want and leave the rest.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:Like there is no rule that dictates that you have to take everything Andrea says as the truth or what you're going to apply.
Lo:Or the opposite.
Lo:Right.
Lo:Some other account, like you can take something from you, Andrea, you can take something from your best friend and you can take something from an account, another sleep account, and you can put those together and decide.
Lo:And I just like that idea of reminding.
Lo:People that you don't have to, like whole kit and caboodle, take what one person says to you as your gospel or your Bible when it comes to sleep or anything else that we can, yeah, you can put this together the way you want to.
Lo:And so if you say something great, cool.
Lo:Hang on to that.
Lo:And then if someone else says, cool, like, apply that the way that feels right to you and that you're allowed to kind of be creative, you know, kind of write your own playbook here with what you're gathering from different sources.
Lo:So.
Andrea:For sure.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:It can be really, really hard, especially if you have, you know, like both harm, anxiety, and you just are sure you can't trust yourself.
Lo:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:But gosh, yeah, just take what works for you until it doesn't work.
Andrea:And once it doesn't work, it won't work.
Andrea:I have a, a sleep rule.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:'cause people will contact me in May.
Andrea:I'll have clients.
Andrea:They're like, I am freaking out because my baby's not sleeping.
Andrea:Naps not working, my toddler's not working, and they're going to daycare in October and I need to fix it now.
Andrea:And I usually go like, okay, well I can help you now if you want, but so much is gonna change in the next six months.
Andrea:I don't usually work on sleep stuff unless you need a change within the next two weeks.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:Because basically everything you need to change, especially at baby stage, you can change it in two weeks.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:Sometimes I'll be working with a client and we have, you know, like a two week.
Andrea:And then they're like, well, can you, can we keep working?
Andrea:'cause I need to, you know, we we're traveling in six months and I was like, contact me in six months, let's save some of our dates because their sleep is gonna be dramatically different in six months.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:Especially when you look at the difference between like a one month old and a seven month old.
Lo:You know, one
Andrea:month old can't be awake for longer than 45 minutes.
Andrea:Where does a seven month old is shifting between two and three naps?
Andrea:They need about two and a half hours.
Andrea:Some can do about three hours.
Andrea:Some are moving into the 2, 3, 4 schedule.
Andrea:So it's just so much you can change.
Andrea:That can change.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And so if something is beyond two weeks, I usually tell people, don't worry about it.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:When you're within two weeks, then worry about it and try to change it.
Andrea:And I think that helps people a lot.
Andrea:I think just having numbers as humans help us.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:I think the idea too of like recognizing that everything is temporary is valuable, one, because if you believe it then you'll know like, I'm not, it's not gonna be this way forever.
Lo:And then two, understanding kind of going back to some myths or some things that have kind of continued to trickle through of that.
Lo:Like what you do today is not gonna like impact your baby's sleep when they're three and a half.
Lo:Like if you wanna hold your baby right now, hold your stinking baby.
Lo:You know what I mean?
Lo:Yeah, yeah.
Lo:Like that's fine if you need 'em to sleep in a month, but right now you wanna enjoy this month before you go back to work or whatever.
Lo:Like, that's okay.
Lo:You do not have to do something perfectly today because six months down the road you need them taking a consistent three hour nap or.
Lo:Or whatever.
Lo:Exactly.
Lo:You know, the goal might be, and I think that's easy to say.
Lo:And again, like now that I've raised some babies, I'm, I have a 1-year-old right now, like we're still going through sleep stuff with her.
Lo:So it's easy for me to say, 'cause I'm not in it right?
Lo:Or I'm not that first baby.
Lo:We're like, but I'm really tired and everyone says I'm gonna sleep and I'm not sleeping, so I'm not sleeping.
Lo:But if, yeah, but if you can like hang onto that in the midst, I think of all of this, I do think it's really, really valuable.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:Well, it's really important to remember that sleep deprivation really hits your brain.
Andrea:It, it really puts it as a deficit.
Andrea:They've done brain scans of, you know, sleep deprived brains, and they're very similar to how your brain acts when it's traumatized, meaning you're using more of your limbic system, more of your emotional side, less of your prefrontal cortex, less of your ability to make decisions rationally.
Andrea:So I think having, remembering that is one of the most important things because if you feel like you're the worst or you feel like you'll never figure out one, you could be right.
Andrea:Maybe you don't have the brain capacity to figure it out by yourself right now.
Andrea:Like contact somebody.
Andrea:And again, I don't mean you have to hire someone or pay anyone, you know, talk to a neighborhood friend.
Andrea:Because if you feel like you can't think it through, you might not be able to.
Andrea:When I, I, I have a lot of sleep consultant friends and I always would text 'em like, please help me.
Andrea:I dunno what I'm doing.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:I can't.
Andrea:Because also there's so much emotion.
Andrea:And there's so much context in it that you can't escape from.
Andrea:So if you feel, you know, anxious about it or like you cannot figure it out by yourself, please spell it.
Andrea:You might not be able to, and that's okay.
Andrea:By yourself.
Andrea:You know?
Andrea:Eventually you will.
Andrea:I don't mean like you're in despair and you're gonna stuck forever.
Andrea:I just mean like if you feel like you're a failure, you're not, you're just at a disadvantage.
Andrea:You're also at a disadvantage from people who have babies who sleep, because if you compare yourself to anybody else and you're like, why can't I figure this out?
Andrea:Why they figure it out?
Andrea:No, just don't.
Andrea:Just stop.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:'cause every baby is just so, so different and everyone's postpartum is so, so different as well.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:Okay.
Lo:So you've talked about sleep science, which I love.
Lo:That's like what I glommed onto right away is, hey, I don't necessarily know how to get my baby to sleep, but I loved the physiology of sleep and going, okay, I recognize that sleep is valuable for my baby for these reasons and that, you know, wake windows numbers.
Lo:They did help me a little bit just to show me.
Lo:Why I felt like sleep had value and I wanted to care about it, I guess.
Lo:And then the temperament conversation I think is super valuable here too, of figuring out what your kiddo does and doesn't like, and then also recognizing that that will enter, like directly play into how they will sleep or how you get them to sleep or how you.
Lo:Comfort them in the middle of the night, things like that.
Lo:So those two things, I love how those go together.
Lo:I thought we could kind of walk through some sleep like myths or isms and you can kind of just speak to them and you can drop in your knowledge or your numbers or whatever here too.
Lo:But I think it's, I, I have this, beyond the birth is my postpartum newborn care course, and I have.
Lo:A section in there where I talk about sleep and I'm not a sleep consultant.
Lo:So really it's more like, hey, here's some things that I always process when I have a newborn baby and like think through and apply.
Lo:So I wanted to throw some of them in front of you and just get your thoughts so that people can maybe pull what they like too and apply that as they're trying to maybe get their baby or toddler to sleep too.
Lo:So the first one is just your ideas on that idea of sleep begets sleep and how far do you go with, go with that saying and how do you apply that?
Andrea:Yeah, so I would change it.
Andrea:I wouldn't say sleep begets sleep, but I would say being well rested begets sleep.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:Because if you try to get, for example, and this is the notion that not all babies need the same amount of sleep, which is a new concept for a lot of people, and a lot of people don't like to accept it.
Lo:Right.
Andrea:If you have a high sleep needs baby, why would you accept that?
Andrea:Why would you accept that somebody's baby needs a lot less sleep?
Andrea:You don't, it just doesn't work in your brain.
Andrea:It doesn't fit in there.
Andrea:So let's say your baby needs five hours of naps during the day so that they're not overtired and they're not creating extra adrenaline to make it to bedtime.
Andrea:If that baby doesn't get the five hours they need, they're gonna create that cortisol and that adrenaline most likely, and not be able to sleep at night.
Andrea:So yes, for that baby, the phrase sleep at sleep would work.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:However, if your baby only needs two hours of sleep during the day, which is a normal amount, A normal differential and you give them five hours of sleep because you believe sleep and get sleep, they're not gonna have enough sleep pressure to stay asleep the whole night.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And so if you force a baby to have more sleep than they need during the day, or if you allow them in some cases to have more sleep than they can handle, that sleep is gonna be in up at night.
Andrea:And then that's where you have split nights, which means a baby's awake for an hour or two in the middle of the night, or you have super early wake-ups, which means baby's up at four or 5:00 AM.
Andrea:Or you have what are called, false starts, which means you put 'em in at seven and you're like, okay, good.
Andrea:Goodnight.
Andrea:And they're up at eight and they don't wanna go back to sleep till 10.
Andrea:So I would, I would, I would promote the idea of well-rested, sufficient sleep, promotes better night's sleep.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:Even though it's lonely, depending on
Lo:your baby and their needs
Andrea:and their environment.
Andrea:But it's true.
Lo:Yeah, it's true.
Lo:People say that, and I think it's this blanket thing of like.
Lo:Get your baby to sleep and they'll sleep more.
Lo:And you're like, okay, I just need 'em to sleep.
Lo:I need 'em to sleep.
Lo:And then you have these parents like crying 'cause their baby takes a 45 minute nap and it's like, maybe that's all they need.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:And then they're sleeping 12 hours at night, so isn't that great?
Lo:Like, they don't have to take a two hour nap, but I think people latch on like two hour nap and a two hour nap and a 12 hour night.
Lo:Mm-hmm.
Lo:And it's like, that might not create, like you're talking these things like that might cr not create this need for sleep at night or whatever.
Lo:And so, I mean, that's perfect.
Lo:I, I feel similarly I've learned.
Lo:Probably trial by fire more than anything on that one.
Lo:But I do think that that phrase is lacking, like it needs to be longer and less, easy to say be more after.
Lo:'cause it's, that's, that's, that's not enough.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:We need some more words.
Lo:Okay.
Lo:That was perfect.
Lo:What about the idea of never waking a sleeping baby?
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:So that one's gonna go along with this, with the first one.
Andrea:If you have a baby who, you know, they're easy sleepers and they'll show you how much sleep they need and they'll do fine.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:Let them sleep.
Andrea:Never wake 'em up.
Andrea:But if you're unfortunate, I do say unfortunate because it is, I think it's harder to parent low sleep needs babies.
Andrea:And you have to wake 'em up, otherwise they don't sleep at night.
Andrea:Definitely wake up that baby.
Andrea:I mean, my 2-year-old.
Andrea:Her last naps, she, she dropped her nap around two, but the last few months before she turned two, she could only sleep eight minutes.
Andrea:And people don't believe me, people are like you, what the heck are you doing?
Andrea:But if she slept longer than eight minutes, she was up all night.
Andrea:And what I mean by all night, she'd be up from like one to four, or she'd be up every hour and she'd be so exhausted and she just didn't have enough sleep pressure to sleep through the night.
Andrea:And I know it sounds insane, even now saying it, I'd be like, I don't believe myself.
Andrea:But that was, you know, three years ago, it kind of does.
Andrea:I upgrade my sleep from that.
Andrea:It does sound, and I've had a lot of clients where we've had to come up with crazy schedules like that because their babies just simply don't need that much sleep.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:So, and then there's other people who decide like, no, my kid's gonna have a long nap, but then they're up till 1:00 AM.
Andrea:You know, I've had clients in California where it's illegal.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:For daycares to wake up babies.
Andrea:And so for my low sleep needs clients, that's really hard because they're like, please wake 'em up, because if they, you don't wake 'em up, then they're up all night.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And so I have someone who I worked with for her first, second, and third, and it was the same thing.
Andrea:And I think her second was the most low sleep.
Andrea:And so the daycare would not wake her up and she was up till 12 1:00 AM every night.
Andrea:She would sleep one to six and then the daycare would let her sleep for two hours and they would not wake her up.
Andrea:So again, if your baby's a good sleeper and letting them sleep works, never wake them up.
Andrea:If you need to wake 'em up because you have a doctor's appointment, because you have to go somewhere, you gotta pick up the other kids.
Andrea:You have to do something important or, because if you don't wake 'em up, they're gonna be up all night.
Andrea:Then wake them up.
Lo:Yeah, I feel like that con, I mean the, the sleep combo probably a lot actually trickles into feeding too, especially in the first year or those first months, like how breastfeeding supply and all that.
Lo:Because I feel like this never wake a sleeping baby thing for me.
Lo:I have been someone who would wake my sleeping baby from naps, typically.
Lo:Naps well.
Lo:Mornings too, if I had to, I guess.
Lo:But, but for me it was also like feeding them really regularly, wanting to get more calories during the day, like working towards that idea of like, I wanna nurse you more during the day and maybe we're shifting your caloric intake as well, right.
Lo:To more daytime hours than nighttime hours.
Lo:So I felt like I was also lining those two up in regards to this specific.
Lo:Don't wake a sleeping baby type thing.
Lo:'cause I'm like, well, I don't really, I'd rather feed 'em every two and a half hours or whatever talking about more little babies at this point and then, you know, do their wake window or whatever and get 'em back to sleep so I can get maybe an extra feed or two in during the day if they're gonna take that.
Lo:And, and maybe student really like work from my kids if we're being honest, but maybe, you know, that'll help them sleep longer, eventually at night because they're not wanting a feed at night that maybe we could like.
Lo:Fill 'em up during the day.
Lo:So that one for me was like a feeding kind of choice as well as mm-hmm.
Lo:Figuring out the sleep needs thing too.
Lo:Right.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:It's just multifaceted.
Lo:Okay, that is perfect.
Lo:The next one, you've kind of already spoke to this, but maybe you can just clarify one more time.
Lo:The, the idea of keeping baby up to tire them out, or, or hey, they're not tired yet.
Lo:This is probably where wake windows come in and then that cortisol that you kind of kept mentioning.
Lo:So maybe speak to that a little bit, if you could, about how, how those things go together.
Andrea:Yeah, so this again falls down to the physiology of sleep.
Andrea:If you do exercise.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:If you tire your brain, if you use your brain muscles and your physical, like your body muscles, your brain is gonna make more OSI or what's it called?
Andrea:It's just gonna be more tired.
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:And you're gonna be able to sleep better.
Andrea:So for example, if you have a baby who's just there looking into space for an hour and then you try to get 'em to sleep, even if, even if they're like sleep cycle is there, they might not be able to sleep.
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:I've had quite a few clients where they had the schedule perfectly and they're like, I don't know what's happening.
Andrea:But then they tell me.
Andrea:They're in the car all day because we're dropping off different siblings and doing different things, and this baby is not stimulated.
Andrea:And so what I pro, what I tell them to do is go outside with baby, like walk to the school instead of driving in a car.
Andrea:Like talk more with baby, do more baby gymnastics, baby massage, and then same exact schedule.
Andrea:And baby sleeps better.
Andrea:Funny because I was talking to my friend with a teenager and she was like, my teenager, stop sleeping.
Andrea:I can't figure out why you're doing so many things.
Andrea:And I was thinking about it and I was like, are you doing this, this?
Andrea:Yes.
Andrea:And then the next day I was like, wait, didn't basketball season just finish?
Andrea:She was like, yeah.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:I was like, oh, well she needs, she was sleeping because she had enough activity.
Andrea:Now she doesn't.
Andrea:You're like, oh my gosh.
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:She's just been reading all day now.
Andrea:Yeah, and it's the same with adults.
Andrea:You know, I started my master's and all my sleep problems went away 'cause my brain had not been working as hard as it is now.
Andrea:Now.
Andrea:So yeah, there is a lot of truth to definitely tire them out.
Andrea:And then also again, different, different babies, right?
Andrea:Some need to be more tired out than others.
Andrea:Some tire out easily, some have more stamina.
Andrea:Within my three i, all three of my needs.
Andrea:So little sleep and like, we need to go to the pool every day for two hours if I want my youngest to sleep.
Andrea:'cause she has the lowest sleep needs.
Andrea:So yeah, again, 12 by fire again to try and do things.
Andrea:But if your baby's needing, you know, the typical wake windows and they're not even tired and you've tried everything, maybe try more simulation, especially for, you know, more advanced kids.
Andrea:That's why also they say like, there's this.
Andrea:Thing.
Andrea:People say that smarter babies sleep less or have a harder time sleeping.
Andrea:And it could be two things.
Andrea:One, they're thinking more, and two, they're not stimulated enough to be tired enough to sleep, which was mm-hmm.
Andrea:Is the case with a lot of babies I work with, but I work with their parents.
Andrea:But yeah,
Lo:both of them, the family, it's about the family really.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:Within that idea of tiring them out, how do you speak to the reverse though, of like.
Lo:If you keep them up too long, this cortisol is gonna, they're gonna have more cortisol in the body.
Lo:And so the, how do you speak kinda that balance of, that's like, I've heard that wake windows specifically have no science behind them, but I love wake windows just as this kind of anchored think about and float around and work with.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:So.
Lo:How do you kind of tuck that in with, Hey, we want your baby to have active time and we do want to, yeah, I'm gonna say quote unquote, like wear them out a little bit.
Lo:Make them use these little tiny bodies.
Lo:But also there's kind of an upper limit or threshold.
Lo:Or you could run in to the idea that you've gone too far and now they're way overtired.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:So there's two different things I'm gonna mention.
Andrea:I'm gonna mention overtired.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And overstimulated, which are actually very different.
Andrea:Overstimulated is like, yes, stimulate them and give them enough things to do, but also give them a little time to process.
Andrea:I do like to recommend for more easily stimulated kids a five minute break before a nap routine.
Andrea:Before the nap.
Lo:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:Right?
Andrea:So you have to again, learn how easily is your kid overstimulated.
Andrea:If they're looking like with their eyes wide open and they can't focus, or if they're looking away from people, that is a sign, they're overstimulated.
Andrea:And that's different from over tired.
Andrea:'cause a kid could be overstimulated within the right wake window.
Andrea:But overtired happens when they've exceeded their wake window.
Andrea:Like, because if their body is ready to sleep and they're not sleeping, their body's like, oh, something's wrong.
Andrea:We need to stay awake.
Andrea:Here's some adrenaline and cortisol to keep you awake.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And so that's what it means by overtired, different from overly tired, which means like you went to the pool all day, you're exhausted, you're gonna pass out because you haven't exceeded that window.
Andrea:Now I know people say there's no signs to wake windows, and I. There's a specific doctor I've actually had on my podcast and he said there's no science for them, and that's fine.
Andrea:I don't need science because I know.
Andrea:What works and doesn't, and it worked for me and hundreds of people have worked with me, so I'll keep suggesting it.
Andrea:But I think people say there's no science because you can't say like, without a doubt, all four month olds need to be out for two weeks, two hours, right?
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:But there is enough science that says, you know, adults, you need to sleep for eight hours.
Andrea:And what does that mean?
Andrea:That after 14 hours, your body is gonna be complaining?
Andrea:Wait, is that 14?
Andrea:No.
Andrea:What's eight minus.
Andrea:It's 24 minus eight 16 after 16 hours.
Andrea:Sorry, don't make me do math right now.
Andrea:My number brain, stop working my part, whatever.
Andrea:After 16 hours, if you say past 16 hours, your body's shooting, cortisol is shooting adrenaline.
Lo:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:So that's my proof that I don't need, I, I mean, that's what I use is proof.
Andrea:Like yes, there is a limit to your body to the amount of time that you can be awake, and that's what I call the wake window.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:I do a hundred percent agree that it's not gonna be the same number for everybody.
Andrea:I know personally, I only need about seven hours of sleep.
Andrea:So my number is, what is that, 17?
Andrea:So my number is 17.
Andrea:So if I pass 17 hours and I'm, I'm like my second, I don't like to be overtired.
Andrea:I get super angry.
Andrea:If I pass that 17 hour mark, I'm done for sometimes 16 and a half, depending on how tired I am.
Andrea:And so that's the case with babies too.
Andrea:There is this pistol number that they can hold onto before shooting adrenaline and cortisol.
Andrea:And if they get to that point.
Andrea:Then it's really hard to sleep for some babies.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:Right.
Andrea:But it's important to say that second part, because some babies are not very sensitive to cortisol.
Andrea:Some babies are not overly sensitive to being overtired and adrenaline, or their body doesn't respond that intensely.
Andrea:And so those are the parents that are like, eh, just keep 'em up.
Andrea:They're fine.
Andrea:They'll sleep in tomorrow because they don't know.
Andrea:They don't know what it's like to deal with an A baby who has an ex excess of adrenaline and cortisol at 10 P 8:00 PM just screaming their little hearts out.
Lo:Again, it comes back to temperament
Andrea:and how sensitive they are.
Andrea:And yeah, it can be really difficult.
Lo:Yeah, I mean, I really feel like a lot of this does keep coming back to temperament in the physiology of sleep.
Lo:Right.
Lo:And so then it's like putting all that together Yeah.
Lo:To then figure out how to best serve your baby and help them and support them in this.
Lo:Like if you don't have those.
Lo:Foundations to kind of stand on.
Lo:Then I think you're just like, well, I'll do the wake windows and I'm gonna read about false starts and all that.
Lo:But it's like, but what are you trying?
Lo:To do, like what are you trying to do and with who?
Lo:Which would be your baby.
Lo:But like what are they like?
Lo:Because if you're like, I'm gonna throw this info about false starts at baby, I'm like, yes.
Lo:But have you first figured out their temperament right?
Lo:Or have you first figured out their sleep needs based on like science and high and low sleeping?
Lo:So I do think sometimes we kind of can skip some of the foundational stuff.
Lo:'cause you're like, oh, I'll just start applying.
Lo:The rules.
Lo:Um, yeah, but the rules might not make sense until you understand who you're applying them to and why they matter, if that makes sense.
Andrea:Yeah, no, and then, you know, I'm doing, I don't, I don't know if you know this, but I'm doing my master's to be a therapist, to be a marriage and family therapist, and so much more is coming into like the signs of trauma or like signs of birth trauma, and those things do come into play as well.
Andrea:And if they have some sort of trauma, like obviously nobody wants their baby to have trauma, but some, if you had a hard birth or if you had a hard, like pregnancy or if you had anxiety and depression, that can also affect how your baby responds to certain interventions and to certain, like exes of cortisol.
Andrea:So all of that comes into play.
Andrea:There's, it's just so, it's so much that goes into it and it's not just, oh, look at this chart of wake windows and that's gonna work
Lo:for some people.
Lo:It'll, right.
Lo:Right.
Lo:I think yes.
Lo:And I think going back, you keep saying it for some babies.
Lo:I'll call them a little unicorn baby.
Lo:But some of the stuff just is really easy and does this work, but I think that's not a, the majority of what is going to go on for most of us with our kiddos.
Lo:And so that's why we're gonna need to probably dig a little deeper.
Lo:And you know, the Instagram post that's like wake windows for an eight month old might not be enough.
Lo:It pro it probably won't be enough for, for a lot of babies.
Lo:Right.
Lo:You just mentioned that you're doing family marital counseling and therapy and actually that's one last question I wanted to ask you about related to the family.
Lo:Because sleep really, you say, oh, I work with parents, or maybe you're working with mom more.
Lo:But really it is about the family.
Lo:How do you navigate when the parents, if there are two parents, don't necessarily agree with how to approach sleep or.
Lo:Maybe one of them feels like I'm pretty alone in this, so how do I do this?
Lo:But I'm tired and I need support.
Lo:What do you, what do you do in that situation?
Lo:Yeah, because this is a family thing for most of us.
Andrea:Oh gosh.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:It's, it's, that's funny because a lot of these consults with couples are word, let me to be like, oh, I can help couples.
Andrea:I would love to, yeah.
Andrea:Couples therapy actually know what I'm doing when I'm talking to couples and giving them, you know, advice.
Andrea:A lot of it, again, I, I believe strongly in relationships.
Andrea:And so a lot of it is in getting to know people, getting to know them.
Andrea:Like what do you, why aren't you helping at night?
Andrea:What do you think she needs?
Andrea:And very often sleep gets better when dad does more.
Andrea:If the case was that when mom was doing everything, sometimes mm-hmm.
Andrea:A solution to mom's postpartum depression is to sleep more.
Andrea:And so dad can give a bottle, you know?
Andrea:So it's a lot about, honestly just talking to each couple.
Andrea:Doing a little bit of kind of motivational interviewing.
Andrea:I don't know if you know about that way of, without that.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:But just talk to him like, what can you do, do you or do you think you're doing mm-hmm the most?
Andrea:Or like, how are you doing?
Andrea:Why aren't you not helping more?
Andrea:Or you feel like you're valued, do you not?
Andrea:So it is kind of a case by case plays, but in general it is a lot about talking and a lot of dads don't realize.
Andrea:How much mom is going through.
Andrea:If mom just taking, if mom is just taking care of everything at night, dad just has no idea.
Andrea:The baby was up three to four times a night.
Andrea:You know, dads can sleep through babies crying.
Andrea:Moms general don't have that capability.
Andrea:Our brain is connected and more attuned to that.
Andrea:So a lot more talking.
Andrea:Sometimes dads just need to set alarms 'cause they will not wake up to the crying baby.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:But yeah, again, it's physiology, like learning what's happening and who's.
Andrea:Gonna do what?
Andrea:And talking about things.
Andrea:'cause a lot of parents don't talk about this before baby's born.
Andrea:I don't realize what goes into it.
Andrea:I didn't realize you had to change diapers in the middle of the night.
Andrea:I think it was like six months before I got over that and stopped talking to everyone about like, why didn't anyone tell me we're gonna have to change diapers?
Andrea:But you know, the middle of the night can also be a really beautiful bonding moment.
Andrea:With your spouse.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:And so it just, you just have to talk about it.
Andrea:So that's a lot of what I've been, yeah.
Andrea:What I would do before I started my master's.
Andrea:And these couple conversations would just talk and talk and talk and be like, oh, we just talked a lot about you guys as a couple.
Andrea:Like let's start talking about baby sleep, but about the baby in many but many ways.
Andrea:That was the, the key factor to starting to actually fix baby sleep.
Andrea:I dunno if I answered your question.
Lo:No, that's perfect.
Lo:I, in that postpartum newborn course I mentioned, I have this section about the pre-baby prep for the couple, and this, we had friends tell Kel and I this when we were pregnant with our first, and they'd had one and we were pregnant together.
Lo:They with their second, or with her first, they said, Hey, you guys need to sit down and you need to have the conversation that's really specific about if baby's crying at 1:00 AM who's stepping up.
Lo:And if baby's diaper needs to be changed at 3:00 AM who's stepping up?
Lo:And obviously we were brand new.
Lo:We didn't know fully what was coming for but they were like, talk about these things more specifically before they're ever here.
Lo:And not just like, oh, we're gonna, you know, figure it out how it goes, or we'll see how we're feeling, or how the baby sleeps.
Lo:Like get some conversation happening between the two of you so you can at least see that kind of basic ideology in each other of.
Lo:How you maybe hope sleep would go or how you maybe think that you are gonna have to help at night or, or when or with whatever it is.
Lo:And we loved that and we tried to sit down and talk about some specifics, you know, without having had a baby and not fully knowing what was coming.
Lo:But trying to talk through some of those things to kind of, and I feel like it helped me with Kelvin figure out.
Lo:Maybe places where he wasn't going to shine.
Lo:Not that I wanted to, like preemptively just decide, you're gonna be really bad at X, Y, Z. I don't think we should do that to each other.
Lo:But it was, you know, we could start to see like, these are things that he's excited about and lighting up about, and these are things where I can tell, okay, this probably isn't gonna be as best, asset to parenthood or whatever.
Lo:And how, how will we, you know, navigate where.
Lo:One of us is really good or into something and the other one isn't.
Lo:And what does it look like to share that or do we separate it?
Lo:And so I do think if we could get more people very specifically having some of these conversations before the baby is ever here, it would be so Val.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:So valuable for all of us.
Andrea:Yeah, for sure.
Andrea:And even having those conversations and like mentioning that, you know, this doesn't have to be, this is just what we are planning on, but even just that gives every, each person accountability.
Andrea:And these conversations are important to have also with your children when you're gonna have an extra baby.
Andrea:And just like, what are you gonna be doing when I'm, you know, putting baby down for a nap?
Andrea:You know, if your baby's as your toddler super young, you might not, but for a five or 6-year-old, you know, practicing.
Andrea:A long time or quiet time because sometimes mommy just needs to feed a sleepy baby.
Andrea:So yeah, these conversations are great, you know, preemptive conversations before a baby, but they're not too late to have.
Andrea:Remember one of my polished best friends reached out and we had, and I gave him a, a newborn consultation and it was so sweet to see.
Andrea:'cause he was like, I don't know what to do.
Andrea:I just, I don't know what to do.
Andrea:And she's just miserable and I don't, you know.
Andrea:Yeah, recognize her anymore and it was just sleep.
Andrea:And so that's when I was like, all right, she's gonna sleep from 10 to two.
Andrea:You're gonna feed baby in that time.
Andrea:And just something little like that, or I was like, you know what, what can you guys do?
Andrea:Obviously I didn't tell him what to do.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:But that helped him out so much and just he wanted to feel like he was doing something and he wanted to know that he could do something, but he didn't know what it was 'cause they'd never like explored it.
Lo:Mm-hmm.
Lo:I love that.
Lo:I think so often, well, you're doing marriage and family counseling, so you already know all this, but like we were told, communicate, communicate, communicate, and we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lo:Mm-hmm.
Lo:And then really that could be the answer to so many problems.
Lo:So we have the hardest time actually doing the communicate.
Lo:So yeah, here you go, guys.
Lo:Communicate that will help baby sleep.
Lo:That's what we're saying.
Lo:That's it.
Lo:That's all you need, but it's kind of true.
Lo:Yeah.
Lo:Okay.
Lo:Andrea, this was great.
Lo:I, like I told you when we started, I, I didn't, we weren't gonna lay out some blueprint for everyone to say, great, this is what I'm gonna do, but I, I wanted to give people like talking points and digging in points for approaching sleep.
Lo:And so maybe you can walk away right now and you can say, okay.
Lo:Sleep physiology, sleep science.
Lo:I wanna lean in there or let me figure that out.
Lo:Temperament a little bit more.
Lo:And so I know I want you to share where people can find you.
Lo:And then if you do have like books you love, I know you have some of your own resources, consults, tell us some of that stuff, um, that can maybe support parents in some of this stuff we just kind of laid out for them.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:So I scaled back a bit because I am doing my marriage and family therapy stuff.
Andrea:But I still do one-on-one consults.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:I do something called troubleshooting consults where we just meet for half an hour and I just ask you a bunch of questions and tell you what you should do.
Andrea:And that's usually enough.
Andrea:But you can book a second one if you want.
Andrea:Very few people need a second one.
Andrea:Or I have my course, which is my bestseller one.
Andrea:That's what most people come in get, and that's all they need.
Andrea:And then you also get to be part of our Facebook group where everyone answers everyone's questions and it's just invaluable.
Lo:Yeah.
Andrea:And so, yeah, it's baby sleep answers.com, that's all their stuff there.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:And then also baby sleep answers on Instagram.
Andrea:I'm not, again, I'm not as intense on it as I used to be because social media is just draining.
Andrea:But I have all my past posts and I do go on it sometimes on my story.
Andrea:I think it's just kind of like, I, I never wanted to be a social media influencer and I hated it, and so I'm trying to keep it because I know, you know, it.
Andrea:I don't get, I don't really get anything from it.
Andrea:Besides helping people, so I do put in a little bit of time.
Andrea:Everyone's every time's like, Hey, can you please help me with this?
Andrea:But yeah, I don't answer questions on the dms 'cause I do get a lot of people that just drop their whole history on my dms and like, tell me what's good.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:And I'm usually like, Hey, like please book a consult and I can actually engage with you and get to know you and tell you what you know, how to solve your baby problems.
Andrea:So please don't go to my Instagram if you just want quick answers because I just can't provide that.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Andrea:I'm sure there's other baby sleep consultants out there who can, and definitely seek those out if that's what you want.
Andrea:But if you want a comprehensive look at your baby's sleep.
Andrea:Especially if you kind of think that you might have a lower sleep needs, because that's my specialty.
Andrea:That's most clients I work with.
Andrea:Yeah.
Andrea:Is figuring out a crazy schedule for their lower sleep needs maybe.
Andrea:Mm-hmm.
Lo:Okay.
Lo:That's perfect.
Lo:We will put the links in the show notes for all of that.
Lo:Of course.
Lo:Last question does not have to be related to anything that we just talked about, but I like to ask everyone at the end, what is something in your life that's just sparking a ton of joy for you right now?
Andrea:Yeah, I think, I mean, honestly, my kids' ages are so fun.
Andrea:They're four, six, and eight, and just watching the three of 'em play together is just the best thing in the world.
Andrea:I, I did not like babyhood.
Andrea:I did not like toddlerhood all that much.
Andrea:I did like not sleeping, but now we're all sleeping, you know, we go camping and just, I'm loving this time.
Andrea:And then obviously again, I'm super into my, my master's program.
Andrea:I'm gonna start my internship at a trauma center.
Andrea:In a couple of weeks, so I'm, I'm just filled with excitement for that and also a little bit of dread.
Andrea:Yeah,
Lo:I bet.
Lo:Well, good luck with that.
Lo:I, it's not the same, but I remember nursing in different nursing school and getting to go to different centers and hospitals and environments and they are, yeah, they all ask something really different of you while you're learning whatever it is you're learning when you see different populations and stuff.
Lo:So I hope that.
Lo:Yeah, I hope that you love it, and I'm sure that it will be also really equally hard as well.
Lo:So thank you for your time today.
Lo:I know you are busy.
Lo:I know your brain is tired,
Andrea:24 minus eight,
Lo:and I, yeah, I just appreciate you.
Lo:I've always loved your, approach on Instagram.
Lo:I feel like you're honest and funny and blunt, but really kind and it just, it's a nice thing to see in the sleep world.
Lo:So, so good to talk to you.
Lo:Thank you.
Lo:Appreciate that.
Lo:You're welcome.
Lo:Thanks, Andrea.
Lo:Of course.
:Thank you so much for listening to the Lo and Behold podcast.
:I hope there was something for you in today's episode that made you think, made you laugh or made you feel seen.
:For show notes and links to the resources, freebies, or discount codes mentioned in this episode, please head over to lo and behold podcast.com.
:If you aren't following along yet, make sure to tap, subscribe, or follow in your podcast app so we can keep hanging out together.
:And if you haven't heard it yet today, you're doing a really good job.
:A little reminder for you before you go, opinions shared by guests of this show are their own, and do not always reflect those of myself in the Labor Mama platform.
:Additionally, the information you hear on this podcast or that you receive via any linked resources should not be considered medical advice.
:Please see our full disclaimer at the link in your show notes.
